From:
Walter Arnold <walter@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date:
Mon, 15 Mar 1999 18:53:22 -0600
Subject:
Carver vs Creator
Very interesting discussion, since there is no one
cut-and-dried answer... each situation is different. I
feel that when more than one person work on a piece, the
more they understand each others craft and art the
better it is for all. And one person needs to provide
the vision, the creative direction and oversite. Someone
commented about this being a debate between Seamus and
myself... I don't think so. I think we agree on the
principles, and are comparing notes and experiences on
the specifics. I think we both try to combine craft,
art, and love of the tools and material to bring out the
best...
At 12:21 AM 3/15/99 -0500, Seamus O'Mahoney wrote:
Quoted text begins.More thoughts and clarifications;
I agree with parts of Walter's synopsis of enlarging w/calipers; it can
be very difficult.
End of quote.
I'd like to clarify- my main point was that using
calipers, like most of carving, is something that is
best learned hands-on, working alongside someone who has
done it for years. I get frequent e-mails asking me to
recommend a carving how-to book, from people who can't
find someone to teach them and want a recommendation of
a book from which they can learn things like calipers
(Maybe Seamus and I can team up and write one for the
popular "dummies" or "idiots" book series... "Stone
Carving for Dummies"... They sell hundreds of thousands
of copies of some of their titles)<sigh>
I've known a few sculptors who essentially self taught
themselves calipers after watching Italian carvers. It
can be done, but even the master carvers have to be very
meticulous when using that method. I've seen carvers who
had 50 years experience and were very careful still mess
up a point- the three calipers can cross at two
different locations, and you can easily shoot for the
wrong one. (I've seen cases where those two locations
are only a couple centimeters apart).
Quoted text begins.I lived and worked in Italy for a number of years in the mid seventies
so the comments I will make are based on personal experience.
End of quote.
When? I was there mainly between '74 and '77... drop me
a note... we might have crossed paths at the time.
Quoted text begins.there are many, many Italians who left Italy to do better. I can assure
you that the Italians here do not work for $15. per day; it is closer to
$15 per quarter hour.
End of quote.
Note that the $15/day figure was for the mid 70's, when
I saw them doing the Moore and Noguchi work. Now they're
at close to American wages and doing quite well.
Quoted text begins.And anyways, the firms that employ these Italian carvers do not work
cheap.
End of quote.
That was always the case! And the firms met with Moore
and Noguchi- the carvers doing the work didn't. I also
saw lots of even more egregious cases... a sculptor who
tore pictures of faces from magazine ads, handed them to
the carvers and said "I want one in onyx and one in
belgian black marble, you know my style"... another who
would fill a plastic bag with plaster, squish it a bit,
give the lump of plaster to the carving studio and order
three enlargements in three different types of marble...
he'd return a couple months later, take an electric
diamond tipped engraving pen and sign his name... stuff
like that...
Quoted text begins.Also, to clarify Walter, Rodin was not a stone carver, he was trained as
a stone CUTTER. Stonecutters do hold the point (which is probably what
you saw him holding) much different than carvers do. Cutters have to
hold the same tool most of the day and strike it many times. Therefore
End of quote.
Nope. I studied the photo (a large blow-up used in a
museum exhibit). It was clearly a posed shot (and I've
been photographed enough to recoginze when the carver is
shot while working and when it's posed for the photo...
both can be legit, but only one is accurate). He was
holding either a wood carving chisel or screwdriver (or
one of those French wood handled chisels for extremely
soft stone) against a very large block of marble, and
standing and holding it awkwardly. Most likely the
photographer took him to a carving studio, and asked him
to pose, he grabbed the closest "tool"... I combined
that with my other observations and readings to conclude
(wrongly, I guess) that he had no real experience in
stone. The same exhibit had some of his plaster models,
and the bronzes and marble pieces of those models, set
together. No adjustment was made in going from one
material to another, and clearly no oversite on his
part on the carving- many measuring points were left
visible on the final pieces (I've seen that on lots of
Rodin marbles in different museums)... the last two days
of finishing work were omittted. A very commercial,
unartistic touch.
I know the difference between carving and cutting, and
how to hold a chisel for each type of work. I'm trained
in both, and have been, for almost 20 years, a member of
the stonecutters union. (the oldest, and probably
smallest, union in North America).
Peter commented about the difference with some
sculptors, like Rick Hart, who acknowledge the
carvers...
Quoted text begins.The Fredrick Hart book
I referenced earlier at least shows photos of Hart working with other
carvers, who are named, and his respect for them comes through.
End of quote.
Yes, he and the Cathedral definitely gave us credit. All
five of our names are signed together on the Ex Nihilio
... Rick as sculptor, Vincent Palumbo as master carver,
and the other three of us (Patrick Plunkett, Jerry Lynch
and myself) as carvers. (I know, I'm the one who carved
all five names).
I came out of the experience with great fondness for
Rick, and that wouldn't be the case if he behaved like
some of the sculptors (described above) whom I observed
in the shops in Italy.
I do feel there can be a clear benefit to the system of
separate carver and creator, but they have to work as a
team, with communication and understanding. I have no
problem with the creator getting 99% of the credit...
Rick Hart deserves it for the Ex Nihilio, it is
appropriate... I do have a problem with it when, as in
cases I've described, the "creator" only supplies a
general concept and the carver makes most of the major
aesthetic decisions and determines the look and feel of
the piece. The Jazz music analogy would be good if the
carvers were interpretive artists, but that isn't the
assigned, intended or acknowledged position.
Walter S. Arnold * walter@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
- References
- message 00123: Carver vs Creator - Seamus O'Mahoney (15 Mar 1999)
- Previous by Thread: message 00121: Carvers vs. sculptors - Peter Tavernise (13 Mar 1999)
- Next by Thread: message 00124: Carver vs Creator - Patrick Healy (16 Mar 1999)
- Previous by Date: message 00124: Carver vs Creator - Patrick Healy (16 Mar 1999)
- Next by Date: message 00126: Carver vs Creator - Patrick Healy (16 Mar 1999)
